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Gakked from my Flist: Five fictional characters I'd like to punch in the face...
- Brandon Walsh - There was something irritating and insufferable about any number of the 90210 characters. But for whatever reason, Brandon is the one I'd actually want to punch. Maybe it's Jason Priestly's hair. I'm not sure.
- Dr. Sean McNamara - Pretty much every character on Nip/Tuck is a bastard. Christian is a giant dick. And Matt is a sociopath. But Sean's the one I most frequently want to smack. Probably because, watching the show, he's the character I expect something of and despite how f'ed up Troy is, Sean seems like the character that has no soul.
- Alf - When I was a kid, I thought this show was really awesome. I've since caught re-runs and seen the commercials. And whoa boy do I wanna punch that stupid f@!$ing puppet.
- Monroe Ficus - It's not like I have some hate on for the "Wacky Neighbor" character. Usually, I like these characters. But man, I never liked Monroe. Really, what the heck was that dude wearing that he made George Michael's Wham! outfits look ordinary. But in any case, for me, Too Close For Comfort would have been better with more Cosmic Cow and less Jim J. Bullock. Monroe!
- Al Bundy - Al's crass and obnoxious, though he's pathetic and miserable way that makes him somewhat sympathetic despite it all. And I want to punch him. Really, it's not personal. It's just this - Ed O'Neill - as Al, makes this face that, as he's getting punched and he's going to just turn his head, wobble, and collapse into an unconscious heap. It's a tremendous bit of physical comedy. And if I have to punch him in the face to get it, well then so be it...
Re: Sean McNamara
Oh - it's not fair at all. There's a reason I used the term bigotry. Basically, I'm allowing prior expectations of characters to color how I judge their actions. It's a form of bigotry.
It's somewhat ironic - because when it came to BtVS - I think the sort of view I had was something a lot of people had coloring them in a case like S3 Buffy-Faith that I don't think was me. And I pointed it out to people. And yet I'm guilty of that here...
Like what he did to get out of jail? Was monstrous
It was? If Christian stays in jail forever, is that going to stop the carver? All it's going to do is postpone the investigation of the real carver, while Kit pursues her issues with Christian - who goes to jail for a crime he didn't commit.
Granted, with what Kit has done, he'd likely get that conviction tossed out either on trial or appeal. During which time, again, the real Carver is out there carving victims. I'm not going to say Christian isn't an asshole. But I think there's a moral argument for the choice he makes, here.
And Julia. Yeah, she's awful.
Re: Sean McNamara
It was? But I think there's a moral argument for the choice he makes, here.
My moral squick with what Christian does is on a personal level, not a big, worldly level. On a utilitarian, whole-world level . . . yes, I definitely concede your point. But on a personal level? I think that is possibly the most horrific thing he has done in the entire span of the series. He made a conscious decision to make someone else a victim in order to free himself . . . and after (a) he'd been put in place of the victim, so he knew exactly how it felt, and (b) after the Carver had killed somebody, so there was a definite chance that someone was going to be murdered as consequence of his actions. Christian sat down and thought this out, and he made a plan, a conscious decision to do this! That is what bothers me about it; that is what I find monstrous, and that is the kind of thing that makes it so I can never reconcile Christian with being anywhere near as moral as Sean. Sean's crime was worrying about trusting a man who fed someone else to a rapist and murderer; Christian was a man who fed someone to a rapist and murderer. That's just how I see it.
Re: Sean McNamara
It's an odious act Christian commits, surely, but I'm not sure what he's otherwise supposed to do. He'd exhausted the morally clean acts. How long would one expect a wrongly commited man sit in jail, knowing the Carver is free and going to carve again?
Sean, I'm sure, would have sat. Christian, who was an abused child, and a victim himself, is not going to allow himself to be confined and made a victim again. Particularly over something he did not deserve.
Sooner or later, the police are going to go public with the Christian's arrest. If one believes that the Carver is going to react to news of someone else being given the credit - whether it's today from Christian's leak or next month when the arrest goes public (because it has to go public sooner or later) then why should people wait for that to happen?
I don't know that Christian makes anyone a victim, as the Carver is going to act regardless. What Christian does, is speed up the timetable of things that are inevitable.
But again - my face punching desire for Sean long predates this recent incident for which I don't particularly wish to punch him. I understand the conflict. His S1 affair was more face-punchable...
Re: Sean McNamara
So, in your view, Christian simply doesn't have to accept any blame, he's merely speeding up the inevitable? See, I couldn't do that. I can't see it that way. That, to me, is . . . chemically impossible, I guess; it's like breaking one of the rules of physics: you don't create or destroy matter, you just move it around. Everything is affected by everything else; everything you do touches everything else. If the police called the media and tipped off the Carver, then it's their fault that the next victim is taken; if Christian does, then it's his fault . . . I don't know. Maybe I'm too simplistic and holistic or something, but that's how I see it. And anyone that has any kind of conscience would have to consider that, wouldn't they? Sean would. Sean did, you know by his reaction when Christian told him what he did that he considered it. And -- no, Christian thought about it, he knew what he was doing! He says so, doesn't he? He just didn't care. I just . . . gah! I don't know.
But again - my face punching desire for Sean long predates this recent incident for which I don't particularly wish to punch him. I understand the conflict. His S1 affair was more face-punchable...
Here's where I'm hypocritical. I'd agree with you, except Megan O'Hara is probably my favorite character, and that -- combined with my incredible, unwavering hatred of Julia -- makes it difficult for me to fault Sean for that. I know that I should fault him for it, and I realize that I'm being amazingly hypocritical in releasing him from any blame, but . . . I just write him off as looking for solace.
*giggle* I love that you have so much pent up hostility against television characters . . . you're so manly and virile, Dave.
Re: Sean McNamara
And in this case, Kit's arrest is really dubious. She framed Christian, instead of considering the possibility that the need to frame him to make arrest might be an indicator that he's not the guy who did the crime. And while Sean would reasonably have any number of issues with Christian, there's nothing in his past that would make it fit his MO. Or that, if he were the Carver, why would he start doing it so publicly now, and not sometime in the past 20 years?
And yeah - I despise Julia too, but it doesn't make Sean's temper and behavior around her any less creepier to me. He's less a moral man to me, and more a giant sanctimonious tool. And plus - because Christian is a giant asshole - yet Sean loses points just by, well, willingly associating with such a giant asshole.
*giggle* I love that you have so much pent up hostility against television characters . . . you're so manly and virile, Dave.
Yeah, thanks. BTW, see above (somewhere above in my comment to someone else) my notes on the difference between a character I want to punch, and a character I want to lock up. Christian, I don't want to punch, because I wouldn't want to even get near him.
Re: Sean McNamara
We base guilt for Christian based upon the assumption that the Carver is going to carve again because of his leak. Someone who carves again because of that, is someone who is going to carve again regardless.
So . . . you think Christian doesn't have this thought process? Or . . . that he's figuring, "Well, someone's going to get carved up regardless," and just doesn't give a shit when it happens, but would prefer that it happens at a time that is beneficial for him?
And either way, the cops aren't going to be investigating whatever the carver has planned, because they have someone already in custody.
The cops in Ryan Murphy land are deeply stupid.
And in this case, Kit's arrest is really dubious. She framed Christian, instead of considering the possibility that the need to frame him to make arrest might be an indicator that he's not the guy who did the crime. And while Sean would reasonably have any number of issues with Christian, there's nothing in his past that would make it fit his MO. Or that, if he were the Carver, why would he start doing it so publicly now, and not sometime in the past 20 years?
I don't think Sean thinks he did it. I think Sean's just worried about how far all of Christian's shit got him.
But yeah, Kit? Worst cop ever. And what a scary, scary lady. I hate to say this, because as a woman, I can honestly say that I'd just about rather be murdered than raped, but she kind of got what was coming to her. Yipes.
And yeah - I despise Julia too, but it doesn't make Sean's temper and behavior around her any less creepier to me.
I honestly am not that power-freaked by how he acts around her, which . . . I wonder what that says about me? I wish he'd just cut ties with her early on instead of doing this whole, "No, I'm going to save the relationship-slash-physically intimidate you" thing, because . . . I think he's better than that, and it just gives her another cross to carry, and she so doesn't need one.
He's less a moral man to me, and more a giant sanctimonious tool. And plus - because Christian is a giant asshole - yet Sean loses points just by, well, willingly associating with such a giant asshole.
Those are both excellent points, but I can't help but be crippled with laughter. For some reason, it's always hilarious to me to hear people described as "tools." But no, really, those are good points for people who are not currently twelve, like me.
Yeah, thanks. BTW, see above (somewhere above in my comment to someone else) my notes on the difference between a character I want to punch, and a character I want to lock up. Christian, I don't want to punch, because I wouldn't want to even get near him.
Yeah, Matt fits in that boat for me. I'd have to hit him with a hockey stick or something; I wouldn't want to actually have to touch him. That kid is fucked. up.
Re: Sean McNamara
I think Christian is thinking about it, and I think he does care that someone else is probably going to get hurt regardless. Ultimately, I think his act comes down to this - he doesn't want to get confined. In a lot of ways, Christian acts more like a wounded animal than a man. But - I don't think Christian is actually amoral - he knows his actions are morally dubious... it's not that he doesn't care, so much as he's weighing things against each other and making decisions...
For some reason, it's always hilarious to me to hear people described as "tools."
It is pretty hilarious. I was trying to decide whether I thought Sean was a tool or a douche. I don't think there's a real definition there - you just have to go with your gut.
And Matt - man, time was, back in S1 that I thought that Matt was the only decent one of them... but then there was the whole incident where he and his buddy got high and drove over that girl, and Matt pretty much lost me forever.
Re: Sean McNamara
In a lot of ways, Christian acts more like a wounded animal than a man. But - I don't think Christian is actually amoral - he knows his actions are morally dubious... it's not that he doesn't care, so much as he's weighing things against each other and making decisions...
But it doesn't seem fair that we just discount someone from moral responsibility. I mean . . . how do you run a society like that? How often do you choose to let someone off the hook from a moral existence, and under what pressures? What is enough to say, "Okay, you had it really tought, you don't have to be moral anymore?" I mean, yes, Christian has been scarred, but he wasn't raised by wolves; he wears Armani for Christ's sake. And I realize that a lot of his Lothario, four-hundred-dollar-sunglasses tendencies are to offset the no, I'm not okay, somebody please save me side of him, but it's not fair to just completely excuse him from morality altogether. Is it? Can we do that? That's not the point of Christian, is it?
It is pretty hilarious. I was trying to decide whether I thought Sean was a tool or a douche. I don't think there's a real definition there - you just have to go with your gut.
haha. I'm just imagining you sitting there, wilting under this internal struggle. Classic.
And Matt - man, time was, back in S1 that I thought that Matt was the only decent one of them... but then there was the whole incident where he and his buddy got high and drove over that girl, and Matt pretty much lost me forever.
Yeah, Matt . . . I used to like Matt. Before . . . well, before his hair started to scare me, for one. Now he's just fucking creepy. I'm sorry, but he is; I almost flinch when I look at him. I'm really, really sorry for his friend though. Henry? Poor little guy. And that poor girl . . . everything he touches just turns black and withers. *shivers*
Turd Sandwich vs. Giant Douche
True - but what is it that he has control over, that he's morally responsible for? He "knows" the carver is free and going to hit someone again, and this is going to happen regardless of what he does. His action, morally repugnant as it may be, is also the one thing guaranteed to (1) free an innocent from jail and (2) get the cops to pursue the actual criminal who is victimizing actual people. How much of this is Christian's selfish desire to be free, his desire to show up Kit, and how much is a genuine concern about justice... I'm not sure. But I do think he's only mostly a monster, and not entirely one - and justice is a genuine part of it. Which is why it's even a point I'd debate instead of writing him off as a simple monster.
We can come to different value judgements, which is fine, because we all formulate values in our own way. Utilitarian, Kantian morality, Jewish ethics, and so on and so on... debating this stuff is a good way of probing and testing ourselves and refining our views, and in theory making us better at making value judgements in our own lives.
One of the many points of Christian is that he's such a dark mirror - particularly, his lack of scruple points in contrast to Sean's attempts and failures to be a paragon. There are any number of things that Christian has done to people that should be condemned and a strange number of cases where he would appear (to me anyway) to a better man than Sean. Sometimes, one wonders if the difference between the two is that Sean looks at what Christian does and sometimes thinks the difference is just that Christian has the balls to do what he doesn't. And this is sometimes both for good and for ill.
I suspect if I wanted to over think it, I could start pulling up many bad Buffy-Faith parallels...