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Wake Forest ...93
Maryland ......85
Am sad.
There have been lots of aspects commented upon in the episode regarding Angel, Spike & Dana - and by and large - I liked these aspects a lot.
Where it got problematic for me, came in the follow-up to BtVS S7, which was problematic itself. (Like how there went from being a handful of remaining potentials - to hundreds of slayers. How crappy was the FE.) And so, I examine this question: Why Andrew?
Why not Giles? Why not Xander, Willow, Faith, or Buffy herself? And why is Andrew the leader, rather than a slayer herself?
Scenario A: We're supposed to take this on it's face.
The council's resources must clearly be strained, and there is too much work to do. Members of the inner circle are too busy or important to go to LA.
Those extra slayers don't help hunt Dana down, because at this point, they're really only trained to fight. Only when Dana has been corralled do the slayers reveal themselves to take her. And they're kept out of the way to this point, because W&H wouldn't key in and help if they were there. Angel wouldn't see it as necessary, and admitting it W&H were needed would make the Slayers look dangerously weak at a time when they don't want to.
And Andrew, believing completely in himself and his stories, would have sold the story - so no one would have thought of how weak the slayers might be at this point in time.
And the doublecross is real. Because W&H can't be trusted with the slayer. Angel himself is fairly trustworthy, but as the head of Corporation Evil - he won't be able to give Dana the attention she needs. (And that's not even counting how he hasn't been giving Connor or Cordy personal attention.)
Scenario B: The Insult
They could have sent anybody. Giles sent Andrew, rather than Xander - because if Xander told Angel "we" didn't trust him, Angel might have written this off as being a product of Xander's general hatred and distrust. Willow or Faith might have seen Angel in action and gone off Council script and entrusted Dana to him after all. Andrew, is generally a lackey, and would do what Giles/Buffy told him too.
More importantly, Angel knows the difference between sending a member of the inner circle, and sending a lackey. Sending Andrew is akin to Angel sending Harmony to meet with Buffy. There can be no real discussion with him. Rejection via Andrew is a dismissal in a much bigger way than anything Xander would say is.
Scenario C: - It's not so dire. Andrew is exaggerating
Buffy lack of trust is nowhere near as evident. As Dana's slayerness was Buffy's creation, it's her responsibility to care for her. Andrew is just there to pick the girl up - but he can't resist the opportunity to make the most of the scenario and puff up his own importance. Buffy doesn't distrust Angel that much, and if he'd called her to ask, he'd know that.
But she's so damn busy with all these new slayers, with coming up with guidelines and practices, and how to handle the aftermath - really a massive undertaking - that she has no time to exercise proper oversight or control. And given the events of S7, she's trying very hard not to be a dictator.
And because Andrew seems like such a lackey, it doesn't occur to Angel that he would be acting outside the official party line. Angel reads "minion" and doesn't question what he says. When he should - because it's easy enough to believe what he's been shown.
Scenario D: Everything you know is a lie.
For all we know, those girls behind Andrew aren't even slayers. And he may or may not actually be in touch with Buffy or really acting on Giles orders. And even if so, we don't really know that Buffy's all that involved. This is, after all, the Andrew who is known to 'embellish' the truth in a major way. And whose loyalties and moral direction can change with the wind.
Buffy trusted Angel and the W&H amulet enough when it saved the world. Buffy trusted Spike when he was in thrall to the FE and a danger to the Potentials she was supposed to protect. Maybe she's busy, frazzled, or out of communication. We don't know anything - only what Andrew tells us, and he isn't very credible. Yeah - he's a lackey. But we don't know who's lackey.
Let's go back to an important line of dialogue, early in the episode:
Gunn: "Doesn't matter what I believe. It's about the evidence."
So. Where is the evidence? Almost everything we have to this point is allegation, hearsay, and circumstantial. It's all second hand.
Here's what really matters - after this incident, Angel feels even more depressed, cut off, and full of doubt in his purpose. And that's exactly what W&H and the SP wanted wasn't it?
To that extent. It doesn't matter whether anything that happened in "Damage" was the truth. For all we know, it's all an elaborate charade set up by the same folks who sent the amulet, who sent Robot Roger Wyndham-Pryce. What matters is what the MoG wind up believing:
That Angel believed the Oracles enough to turn back the day.
That Cordelia believed Skip enough to take the deal.
That Wesley believed in the prophecy enough to kidnap Connor.
That Connor believe Cordy enough to bring her the girl.
That Angel believed Lilah's offer enough to take the W&H deal.
That the MoG believed they could do good at W&H and took the deal.
That Gunn trusts W&H enough to have so much shoved into his brain.
That Angel believes Connor is better off in his new reality.
That Angel believes Eve enough to play W&H's game.
That Angel believes Andrew's claims enough to back down.
Spike & Lindsey is a great example. I'm guessing it's all a lie, and I think Spike probably believes that as well. But if it's not, and somebody dies because he ignored one of Lindsey's visions.
If Angel called Buffy, she might well correct Andrew's incorrect claims. Or she might confirm what Angel is most afraid of. Angel is too willing to believe what Andrew tells him to take that risk.
We don't know the actual truth. We only know what Angel has chosen to believe. And just like Jasmine, it might be a lie. And nobody is both innocuous and unscrupulous enough to set either or both paths in motion - is better suited - than Andrew Wells.
Maryland ......85
Am sad.
There have been lots of aspects commented upon in the episode regarding Angel, Spike & Dana - and by and large - I liked these aspects a lot.
Where it got problematic for me, came in the follow-up to BtVS S7, which was problematic itself. (Like how there went from being a handful of remaining potentials - to hundreds of slayers. How crappy was the FE.) And so, I examine this question: Why Andrew?
Why not Giles? Why not Xander, Willow, Faith, or Buffy herself? And why is Andrew the leader, rather than a slayer herself?
Scenario A: We're supposed to take this on it's face.
The council's resources must clearly be strained, and there is too much work to do. Members of the inner circle are too busy or important to go to LA.
Those extra slayers don't help hunt Dana down, because at this point, they're really only trained to fight. Only when Dana has been corralled do the slayers reveal themselves to take her. And they're kept out of the way to this point, because W&H wouldn't key in and help if they were there. Angel wouldn't see it as necessary, and admitting it W&H were needed would make the Slayers look dangerously weak at a time when they don't want to.
And Andrew, believing completely in himself and his stories, would have sold the story - so no one would have thought of how weak the slayers might be at this point in time.
And the doublecross is real. Because W&H can't be trusted with the slayer. Angel himself is fairly trustworthy, but as the head of Corporation Evil - he won't be able to give Dana the attention she needs. (And that's not even counting how he hasn't been giving Connor or Cordy personal attention.)
Scenario B: The Insult
They could have sent anybody. Giles sent Andrew, rather than Xander - because if Xander told Angel "we" didn't trust him, Angel might have written this off as being a product of Xander's general hatred and distrust. Willow or Faith might have seen Angel in action and gone off Council script and entrusted Dana to him after all. Andrew, is generally a lackey, and would do what Giles/Buffy told him too.
More importantly, Angel knows the difference between sending a member of the inner circle, and sending a lackey. Sending Andrew is akin to Angel sending Harmony to meet with Buffy. There can be no real discussion with him. Rejection via Andrew is a dismissal in a much bigger way than anything Xander would say is.
Scenario C: - It's not so dire. Andrew is exaggerating
Buffy lack of trust is nowhere near as evident. As Dana's slayerness was Buffy's creation, it's her responsibility to care for her. Andrew is just there to pick the girl up - but he can't resist the opportunity to make the most of the scenario and puff up his own importance. Buffy doesn't distrust Angel that much, and if he'd called her to ask, he'd know that.
But she's so damn busy with all these new slayers, with coming up with guidelines and practices, and how to handle the aftermath - really a massive undertaking - that she has no time to exercise proper oversight or control. And given the events of S7, she's trying very hard not to be a dictator.
And because Andrew seems like such a lackey, it doesn't occur to Angel that he would be acting outside the official party line. Angel reads "minion" and doesn't question what he says. When he should - because it's easy enough to believe what he's been shown.
Scenario D: Everything you know is a lie.
For all we know, those girls behind Andrew aren't even slayers. And he may or may not actually be in touch with Buffy or really acting on Giles orders. And even if so, we don't really know that Buffy's all that involved. This is, after all, the Andrew who is known to 'embellish' the truth in a major way. And whose loyalties and moral direction can change with the wind.
Buffy trusted Angel and the W&H amulet enough when it saved the world. Buffy trusted Spike when he was in thrall to the FE and a danger to the Potentials she was supposed to protect. Maybe she's busy, frazzled, or out of communication. We don't know anything - only what Andrew tells us, and he isn't very credible. Yeah - he's a lackey. But we don't know who's lackey.
Let's go back to an important line of dialogue, early in the episode:
Gunn: "Doesn't matter what I believe. It's about the evidence."
So. Where is the evidence? Almost everything we have to this point is allegation, hearsay, and circumstantial. It's all second hand.
Here's what really matters - after this incident, Angel feels even more depressed, cut off, and full of doubt in his purpose. And that's exactly what W&H and the SP wanted wasn't it?
To that extent. It doesn't matter whether anything that happened in "Damage" was the truth. For all we know, it's all an elaborate charade set up by the same folks who sent the amulet, who sent Robot Roger Wyndham-Pryce. What matters is what the MoG wind up believing:
That Angel believed the Oracles enough to turn back the day.
That Cordelia believed Skip enough to take the deal.
That Wesley believed in the prophecy enough to kidnap Connor.
That Connor believe Cordy enough to bring her the girl.
That Angel believed Lilah's offer enough to take the W&H deal.
That the MoG believed they could do good at W&H and took the deal.
That Gunn trusts W&H enough to have so much shoved into his brain.
That Angel believes Connor is better off in his new reality.
That Angel believes Eve enough to play W&H's game.
That Angel believes Andrew's claims enough to back down.
Spike & Lindsey is a great example. I'm guessing it's all a lie, and I think Spike probably believes that as well. But if it's not, and somebody dies because he ignored one of Lindsey's visions.
If Angel called Buffy, she might well correct Andrew's incorrect claims. Or she might confirm what Angel is most afraid of. Angel is too willing to believe what Andrew tells him to take that risk.
We don't know the actual truth. We only know what Angel has chosen to believe. And just like Jasmine, it might be a lie. And nobody is both innocuous and unscrupulous enough to set either or both paths in motion - is better suited - than Andrew Wells.
no subject
Great job of lining up all the things we've seen so far. Let's just see what we end up with.
no subject
This icon just for you.
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no subject
You're right, in the end what matters is that Angel buys it, no matter what we think is really going on.
no subject
For some reason I keep finding Gunn intriguing. Not only was he the one who essentially 'questioned' what Angel believed, because they had no proof, he also was instrumental in stopping the others from taking any direct action regarding Eve. By suggesting that they play her like she's playing them he accomplished something that seems to be of increasing importance to him: putting the activity back under his perview.
His comment about, "Rational thought...it's an acquired taste," also appeared to me to be rather pointed, and less a reference to himself than to the others, Angel in particular.
His line "Doesn't matter what I believe. It's about the evidence." felt more significant when examined in the light of your "Doesn't matter what's real. It matters what they believe." What really struck me at the end is that Angel doesn't know what he believes. He's had doubts about what good they (in particular he) have really been doing at W&H. For him, the intimation that they are suspect because of being with W&H, and it coming from Buffy, appeared to hit Angel hard. He's expressed his doubts and had them categorically knocked down by whom? Gunn. Who, of them all, is the most suspect as far as how deeply he is into the W&H culture.
no subject
Sorry about the Maryland loss.
Like how there went from being a handful of remaining potentials - to hundreds of slayers. How crappy was the FE
I didn't think about that, but it's so true. That makes the end of BtVS that much less climactic.
I agree Andrew is rather an odd choice, but then again, his presence was completely unnecessary other than to act as escort for the slayer on the way home. The information he imparted could've been given over the phone and he was of absolutely no use in tracking Dana.
There are, of course, casting reasons why many of these characters couldn't show up, but with the exception of a few of them, there really aren't suitable explanations for why Willow, for instance, couldn't go.
We don't know the actual truth. We only know what Angel has chosen to believe.
I think that's what we're meant to focus on; not what is true, but what Angel believes to be true. Buffy's doubt in him, real or not, is believable to Angel because he doubts himself. At any other point in time he would've called Buffy. He won't now because he's lost his way and this just helps him drift farther off course.
For all we know, it's all an elaborate charade set up by the same folks who sent the amulet, who sent Robot Roger Wyndham-Pryce.
I wonder if there is something like that going on. We all know that working for W&H wasn't the smartest move in the world and we're all expecting the rug to come out from under them. Given that, I can't help but think that the writers have something up their sleeves.
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Well, it's a road game against a ranked opponent, so we deal.
I can't help but think that the writers have something up their sleeves.
IMHO, they clearly do. The big question, is what that is. What's truth and what's lie.
no subject
Andrew exagerates in a certain way. In an American Otaku way, thick with comics, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Japanese cartoons and gaming. I don't think he's exagerating here. So, no C.
Buffy wouldn't have gone, because this violates the "I'm still baking" rule and would leave Dawn alone in Rome. Willow and Faith would force a reveal of what any of the Fang Gang remember of last season, neither are really available, between sucking on Fox and coming on the London stage. Besides, Faith, as an escaped felon, must keep a low profile, and Willow could shortcut so much of the plot by, for example, teleporting Dana into a holding cell at W&H before the second act. As everyone seems to say, Xander's antagonism with Angel would get in the way of the end, with the reveal that nobody trusts Angel now that he's with W&H. He never trusted Angel anyway, and everyone leading the New Council knows this. So I buy why it was Angel. And, we're talking Angel and W&H's SWAT team, and the slayers came up and looked confident. Confidently walking up to people carrying MP-5s and getting in their faces. Definitely not civilians. So, no D.
I think B but can accept A.
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So even if those girls are slayers, it can still be D. It probably isn't, but it just might be.
no subject
In-story reason: Double cross was the plan all along. Giles sent Andrew because they would never suspect such a foppish ineffective geek of being able to pull that off.
Meta reason: Andrew's one of the only Team Slayer folks who'd not only be thrilled to see Spike but could conceivably have more loyalty to him than Buffy and thus not tell her he's back. He may blab because he can't keep his trap closed, but he's not going to go right to Buffy and tell her on general principle.
Meta reason #2: He brings the funny, which this dark of an ep really needed.
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Meta-Reason #3. ME is in love with Tom Lenk. Xander could have brought the funny, seeing as ME has been giving Andrew jokes that used to go to Xander in S1-4 anyway.
I don't really think it's the big lie, but it could be. I'm prepared to not believe anything this season.
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Also, I see Xander as someone who grew up a lot in those seven years. He's nobody's buttmonkey anymore, and really hasn't been since Buffy said "Check. No more buttmonkey." in BvsD (BtVS 5.1).
But yeah, ME does love Tom Lenks.
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How much do I love you?
-R
Re: How much do I love you?
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I think it's a little bit of B and C.
Andrew might be wrong about "everybody" distrusting Angel now, but I don't think he was out-right lying. More that he heard "everybody" muttering, "Angel's heading Wolfram & Hart? WTF?" And since all the Scoobies are in different parts of the world... how exactly was Andrew able to know what "everybody" thought? At the most, we know Giles' opinion.
I'm guessing that it's Angel's judgement that Buffy isn't trusting. But she seems to be waiting to find out what the heck is going on with him... I think that if she really and truly believe that Angel, soul and all, was now in league with Evil Incorporated, she would be staking him herself. Since Angel isn't fitting in an ashtray, I think it's safe to say that she's at least trying to give him the benefit of the doubt... but his decision to take over at WR&H is enough for her to at the very least NOT trust his judgement in dealing with Dana.
Re: I think it's a little bit of B and C.
Mostly, I think Buffy is trying to keep slayer business in house and separate from Angel's business - which they've been doing for years. To the extent that there's distrust, I think Andrew is blowing it out of proportion.
But those relevant decisionmakers (Buffy, Giles) are offscreen, so it's all open to debate.
Andrew is definately one for the melodrama...
Move over, "That's how we do it in the O.C., bitch."
I've got a new favorite comeback/insult of the day!
Re: Andrew is definately one for the melodrama...
Plus, you know that Andrew's love for Ryan is only matched by his boycrush on Sandy.
no subject
So glad you posted this. You have such great thoughts about all of this.
I agree, it could be any of the scenarios posted and *definitely* agree with your sum-up.
I'd have to do some research but wasn't the whole premise of W&H's interest in Angel the fact that there was a prophecy that said he was pivotal in the End of Days - it depended upon which side on he was playing? That's what flashed in my mind at Andrew's Buffy comment. If Buffy doesn't trust him anymore, if she's not "on the same side as him" (or so it might appear) then Angel is on the other side - W&H's side - and W&H succeeded at getting him on their side albeit in a different way then originally intended.
And, if this is true, it's brilliant on their parts. Clearly, Angel is a moral guy so give him moral quandaries ... how he's constantly having to let evil go free because it is an increasingly grey world in which he lives/works. This coupled with the fact that Spike is working the way he liked to work - out on the streets, one on one, letting his demon get physical. So he just feels increasingly ineffectual and depressed and compromised.
What do you think?
Has to be a deliberate insult, I'm thinking...
But seriously, what the Scoobies went through in S7 would leave them believing even more than usual that the Necessary Thing approach to morality is Bad Bad Bad - hence I can see them pretty much writing off Angel or at least having grave suspicions. The big question is how long it takes until they actually have to deal with a lesser-of-two-evils situation without the writers consciously giving them a last minute out.
Re: Has to be a deliberate insult, I'm thinking...
The big question is how long it takes until they actually have to deal with a lesser-of-two-evils situation without the writers consciously giving them a last minute out.
That happens on AtS. The BtVS characters have the out-clause all the time. Someday, I'll put out my rant on why I despise "The Gift".
no subject
I'm inclined to believe that Andrew's statement, and what it meant in the grand scheme, was somewhere between Scenario C and D.
I didn't see anything in Andrew's comments to Spike earlier when discussing Buffy, that would support his being close enough to Buffy to know what she's really thinking. They are living is different countries and communicating by conference call. I think it's probable that Buffy has some knowledge of the Dana situation... she knew just enough to know that Dana was her responsibility (which I think is true) and not to trust W&H with a Slayer. But I think she left the details of the operation to Giles.
I'm firmly in the camp that believes any double-cross would have been Giles' rather than Buffy's strategy. Giles has personal and professional reasons to be distrustful of Angel and/or W&H.
Even if Buffy was wary of Angel's involvement with W&H, she's never been shy about confronting him as in the situation leading her to LA (IWRY) and after Faith's actions (Sanctuary). Angel seemed rather taken aback by Andrew's statement so it seemed (to me anyway) that he wasn't previously apprised of Buffy's alleged distrust.
Initially, I couldn't understand why Angel would believe anything the little twirp has to say, although I suppose that in the absence of solid knowledge of Buffy's feelings, he was better off not pressing the issue at that moment given the very dangerous situation. Also,I agree that the same coming from someone like Xander, Angel could easily have dismissed it for the reasons your raised. Plus, Angel trusts Buffy enough to defer to her and I think he would have done so no matter what.
Someone else pointed out that Andrew never specifically said that Buffy sent the orders... "Who do you think gave the orders?" or something like that. I think Andrew is either inferring based on what his mentor Giles said, and/or embellishing the facts that may know - which is totally in character.
In any event, I think less than subtle point the writers are trying to make is that Angel may be deluding himself if he thinks he do good while within the belly of the beast, and that Angel is isolated and lost.
Losing touch with general commentary threads
Personally, leaving out the "we needed a Scooby to appear on AtS and he was the only one available" -type reasons, I think this is completely Giles. What do I mean? I very much doubt that Buffy has anything to do with the administrivia of the new Watchers' Council. I would suspect that she's essentially on sabbatical while Dawn finishes school. Now that leaves Giles, the only real watcher the slayers trust, in charge of the Scoobies since I don't see anyone else having the ability and patience to run things.
Who is he going to send? Giles has not trusted Angel since S2 when he went evil and Buffy wouldn't want to violate the 'baking' rule anyways or leave Dawn. Giles wouldn't tell her either because he has dispensation not to and he doesn't want to get into another argument over a thoroughly untrustworthy vampire (his POV). He can't send Robin and Faith because they can't afford to have Robin attack Angel and where one goes I'll bet the other does. He couldn't send Faith alone anyhow because she trusts Angel with her life and has a flexible view of the world. Enough so that she might well let Angel keep the girl. He can't send Xander or Willow for those same reasons. Xander doesn't trust Angel, but he also would see that Angel has the resources to ensure that Dana got proper treatment, training etc. More than that, Xander is an independent thinker and it's always a risk to send someone like that on a mission when you don't want them thinking independently.
Who does that leave? Some of the former potentials? They're still getting used to their role and most of them probably don't have any grasp at all of the bigger picture. Angel would either sucker them in or they would blow everything sky high by attacking people at random in evil-central forcing everyone to come to Angel and the girls' rescue and that would bring Buffy and Angel into contact. Not good (Giles' POV). So we've eliminated the original four and their significant others. That leaves us with Andrew. He is low man on the totem pole but he was there for the final battle in Sunnydale and the others seem to trust him to an extent. Moreover, we all know that he slavishly follows orders. S6 and S7 made that clear. He will do as he's told, won't get sidetracked by Angel's searching for redemption speech and has just enough authority and trust from the group that the former potential slayers will follow him if they're told to by Giles.
Yes, from Giles' perspective, Andrew was the best man for the job. I just think no one else was involved in the decision.
SCWLC
Re: Losing touch with general commentary threads
no subject
I tend to lean toward C being the most viable and reasonable explanation with D being a very distinct possibility as well. I just tend to think C is more right simply because of who was doing the talking.
Even in this episode we saw how Andrew liked to embellish, how he inflated his own self-worth and overall contribution. So I find it completely within the realm of believability that he would embellish on everything else as well.