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Randomness, The Doctor Is In - On How not to Bash

So, I finally went to the doctor to get my knees checked out. And as it turns out, the preliminary diagnosis is Bursitis and Patellar Tendinitis. In both knees. So this means more resting, PT, anti-inflammatories and wearing sleeves for awhile. And possibly, I might have to go get injections and what not. At this point, I wish they would have just busted out the needle, drained what had to be drained, and shot me up with whatever cortico-steriod they think I'll be needing.

But the fun thing? Apparently, this is a condition traditonally known as "Housemaid's Knee" - because the knee seems mostly okay until you actually get on your knees to clean the floor or somesuch, at which point it is remarkably painful.

Note - this does not amuse me because of the term "housemaid" or any particular gendered connotations. Mostly it's because if there's anyone I know who doesn't do nearly as much housework as should be done, it's me. This would be like getting "Tennis Elbow" without actually playing tennis. (Not that I do) Seriously - if I'm gonna be getting housemaid's knees, at least I should be cleaning my house. This is just shameful.

(As is the condition of my house - fortunately I'll be bringing in an OCD Neatfreak of a tenant next month...)

BTW - Recieved a favorite reply in an offlist discussion where I tried to explain why a writer's work was Bashfic:

You insist that I MUST see (Insert Character Here) as sympathetic, in a situation where you already know that my views are opposite.

Now, actually - I claimed that if you don't want to write Bashfic, then yeah - you have to be able to consider all of the characters (at least not counting moustache twirling villains like Warren) from a sympathetic POV. You don't actually have to sympathize with them - or necessarily go with it - but you do have to be open to considering the possibility.

It's the willingness to accept ambiguity. We don't want stories so amorphous that nobody has any idea what you're going on about - but ambiguity is key. Shades of grey.

People generally have motivations. One should explore that. And not just one motivation - usually - people have several. It's really great if you can work it so that characters have conflicting motivations, and then find themselves in situations where they have to make value judgements around those conflicting values.

It would also help if characters have motivations that aren't clear or clean - some should be pretty and noble, and some should be ugly and ignoble. Because - hey - that's humanity. And ideally, as a writer, we shouldn't make excuses for characters having ignoble motivations. Especially the characters we like. It's okay for them to have those ugly motivations. It can be bad if they act on them - but it makes them human characters instead of simple fantasy objects or cardboard cutouts.

And when it comes to characters we dislike, whether it's Spike, Riley, or Kennedy or anyone else - we shouldn't write off their better motives - most people have them.

So that's my key - be ready to explore the characters and consider them as having multiple motives, preferably layered and conflicting for the better dramatic possibilities. If characters behave as they do out of multiple motives - if acts can't be attributed only to one motive, good or bad, you have some ambiguity. You have humanity in the story. Might not make it actually good or bad, but at least you'll be making sure that you aren't writing Bash-fic.

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As always, you are wise beyond your years, young Jedi master.

Bash fic always cracks me up. If you have such a narrow view that you can't see that character A has some good qualities (and it seems to go hand in hand with character Z out-sainting Mother Teresa), I have to wonder a little about your agenda in writing the fic.

Yeah - well that writer's agenda was pretty clear. The conversation was both funny and frustrating at the same time. Reading her use one justification to excuse obvious character flaws, and then turning around and relying on a second justification that totally contradicts the previous justification to excuse a different flaw - or to extol a virtue.

Plus, anybody who can't wrap their head around the rather obvious concept that William/Spike has problems handling rejection is going to have amusing things to say.

Eeeeee. I agree with you, and you put it so much better than I could. Although, I think sometimes bashing is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I've been pegged in some quarters as a "Xander basher" and when I've pressed for a reason, it's because these individuals believe that I'm accentuating Xander's less-than-stellar qualities.

Living History has been accused of bashing Robin, although I've explained a million times that just because Character A doesn't get along with Character B or that they disagree on a few fundamental issues it doesn't mean I'm bashing Character A or Character B.

Then you have the problem where the author doesn't get into Character A's or Character B's mindset. The story is taken from an outside point of view and those characters may come off as less-than-stellar. It makes your job hella harder, I think, in those cases. That's why I often turn to the crutch of at least getting inside everyone's head, including the antognists in question. At least those characters will get a moment of sympathetic treatment or at least some revelation that their motivations aren't all petty.

There are some clear-cut cases, I agree. (God knows, as a Xander fan, I've seen it often enough.) And I very much hate it when I see any character bashed, even characters I don't like. Sadly, Andrew, Kennedy, Robin, and other late BtVS additions are most often bashed, but part of it is because ME didn't give us a whole lot to go on with the later characters. The details have to be created by the author from out of thin air, and that takes time, effort, and a lot of writing.

Although, I'm the first to admit, it can be a miserable business. (Looks sadly at my death fic.) Especially when most of the characters you're working with a characters you hate and the set-up doesn't lend itself well to sympathetic treatment.

I guess in the end, I've found that I've had to go on a case-by-case basis. Does the writer in question have a history of character bashing? Does the writer in question usually give characters the benefit of the doubt? Is there an in-story reason (as opposed to the meta reason of, "It's easier on me the writer if I don't have to consider their motivations) for the characters to be the way they are? I think a certain amount of trust has to come into play when reading a fic and you're surprised by the characterization in it, especially if the fic is a WiP.

I'm not saying I disagree with you. Far from it. I agree 100%. But there can be a little wiggle room on the issue.

It can certainly be audience dependent. It would never occur to me that you would bash Xander. You point out his character flaws and occaisional lapses, but are pretty clearly giving him a sympathetic treatment. (Without being overly so.) or someone who associates anything critical with Bashing, then yeah - but that really isn't my definition of a bash.

If it is, then I "bash" the whole of humanity. Because, hello, if humans were perfect we'd be angels. Sin is part of our nature. We get over that and get on telling our stories.

I'm not saying I disagree with you. Far from it. I agree 100%. But there can be a little wiggle room on the issue.

Oh, definitely. I was trying to use qualifiers in there. Me personally - when dealing with fics, I want to be able to see character motivations. And if a character doesn't have a balance of motives, it's going to raise flags.

The particular fic that raised my eyebrows: Collateral Damage (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/959522/1/) was recently posted to a heretofore Bash-Free newsgroup I liked with the author comment that they were "making up their own explanation" for an episode that didn't make sense to them. (i.e. - they couldn't wrap their heads around a reason to find either Riley or Buffy remotely sympathetic.) What they produced was a Riley-POV rewrite of "As You Were" that falls pretty clearly into the Bash-camp.

Then you have the problem where the author doesn't get into Character A's or Character B's mindset.

Right. For me, the question is - did they try. In the fic I cited - the author clearly wasn't remotely interested in Riley's mindset even though it was Riley POV. It's a projection fantasy - the author doesn't want to see him sympathetically so projects all manner of nefarious motives on him (i.e. Riley is coming back for revenge, even though he's never been portrayed as particularly vengeful) without considering what other motives Riley might have had. And there's enough evidence in the series to pick up some positive motives for Riley - namely that he does have an open mind, even if it's slow to open and that he probably does genuinely like and respect Buffy if he's got any emotional distance from her.

It can be tough with newer characters. With Kennedy, I don't particularly care for her, and I mean that exactly as is written. I neither really like nor dislike her. So if I read stories with her in them, I do want to be able to feel like the writer did some work to get her having motives. And with Kennedy, the author does have to do work. Because, to be honest, in S7 she's 80% affectation and only 20% motivation. Wood, like him or not, has ample record and hinted at backstory to have a host of good and bad motivations. Kennedy, not so much.

Yikes! I could barely read that!

ow, ow, ow, ow

Yeah. Clear-cut case right there.

And the best part - she couldn't, even after several emails explaining, understand how it could possibly be bashing. Most writers, once it's pointed out, are proud and pretty unashamed about the bashing...

You're a braver person than me. From various things that particular author has said on that board, I wouldn't go near anything she writes with a ten foot pole.

That ficcer sounds vibrant.

Amen.

I try, always, to remember that how I feel about character X has nothing to do with how character Y feels, and that my personal negative feelings towards a character, if I have them, simply have no place in character Y's POV.

I try, always, to remember that how I feel about character X has nothing to do with how character Y feels

Yeah - that's one half of it. The other half being - how I feel about character X might not be correct. If it's your Original Fiction, you can write what you want without worry because you set the rules. It's not exactly the same when you work in another author's sandbox.

The particular fic was a Riley-bash, set in Riley's POV. One where the author didn't actually ask herself any hard question about his motivation before just defaulting to writing him as a product of her own feelings. Largely without the context that Whedon et al had written for the character.

The other half being - how I feel about character X might not be correct.

This is my blurse (blessing/curse), both in real life and in writing fic; I can always see everyone's motivations very clearly, no matter how angrered I may be by their actions. It may take me a little while to get to that point of seeing, but I always get there. So no matter how much I may dislike Riley because he's boring, it doesn't mean he's not a nice guy or that he doesn't have consistency and reasons for all of his actions. I COULD ignore cannon and just make him a one-dimensional vengeance guy, but it would have to be a conscious choice, and I couldn't write something that didn't ring true for me. I wonder sometimes (as in this case), if when people write "bash fic", it's because they honestly see the character as being capable of doing such things. In which case, this means they don't see the character at all, but only themselves projected onto the character. Generally, when people do that, they never even realize they aren't seeing the actual character, which is not only mystifying, but vaguely alarming. Often, stories like this are a window straight into the writer's soul that you'd probably rather not look through.

If it's your Original Fiction, you can write what you want without worry because you set the rules. It's not exactly the same when you work in another author's sandbox.

I agree with this mostly, but there are those original writers who can set up a very one-dimensional character in their own books, just for the sake of carrying out a desired plot. And one dimensional characters are always obvious, and annoying.

no matter how much I may dislike Riley because he's boring, it doesn't mean he's not a nice guy or that he doesn't have consistency and reasons for all of his actions

Exactly. And of course "boring" is subjective. He's definitely a Square, so he's always going to be more or less interesting to different viewers based upon what they're already into.

But it might be that Riley is boring mostly because the story wasn't told through his perspective. And so a story told through his perspective (such as Walking with Guns (http://www.livejournal.com/users/nwhepcat/447264.html) by

nwhepcat can mine aspects of his charcter that can make him more interesting to readers though he's still Squarish.

It can take work - it's a matter of finding issues to work with. I've read your fics and seen where you do this, and it's a good trait to have as a writer.

I wonder sometimes (as in this case), if when people write "bash fic", it's because they honestly see the character as being capable of doing such things. In which case, this means they don't see the character at all, but only themselves projected onto the character. Generally, when people do that, they never even realize they aren't seeing the actual character, which is not only mystifying, but vaguely alarming. Often, stories like this are a window straight into the writer's soul that you'd probably rather not look through.

Definitely the case with the author I got into the argument with. It wasn't like disagreements you and I have had over characterization - where we see similar things, but just go in different directions. This writer couldn't see anything in the character at all beyond what she was projecting, and got upset at the idea that others (including the ME writers) could and would. Enough to write and post a bashfic rectifying her vision, instead of trying to understand what the show was going for.

Ultimately, what gets me going about a story is when you have characters that have multiple motivations, good and bad, and who face circumstances where those motives come into conflict and they have to make choices that reveal how they value things. That's always going to be a good and reliable source of drama that can get lots of people involved on either side.

Yeah, Riley's "boringness" is definitely my opinion, I'm aware. I never say never, though. And in that vein, I just started reading the story you posted a link to, and yeah, this is the kind of perspective from Riley's POV we didn't get enough of on the show and would have made a huge difference in the way I (and others, most likely) viewed him.

You summed up perfectly in your last paragraph exactly what I was trying to say further down the thread. That IS what makes a story interesting.

Checked out the fic in question and by coincidence I've just finished watching "As you were".

I agree with the comment about projection and saying more about the writer than anything else, but I thought that I'd add that by giving Riley the motivation, etc. it meant that the writer missed the entire purpose of the episode in terms of Buffy's character....and very likely one of the major themes of the entire season.

But that writer wouldn't be the first one to have missed that.

ahh, so sorry to hear about your "housemaid" issues (sorry, I promise I won't use the term again :D) Something happened to my knee about a year ago that still flares up occasionally and I know how painful knee problems can be and how debilitating they are. I hope you feel better soon.

At this point, it's still more annoying than debilitating. I could play sports on them, though not well - but in the long run, if I don't get this dealt with it'll turn chronic and I do not want to have to deal with this for the next forty-odd years of my life...

I agree, things like these have to be treated early. I have been so busy I haven't been as diligent I will call my new Dr. and make an appointment perhaps there is something I can do to improve the discomfort. I have to admit that they seem to be better since I moved to LA. Maybe the less humid weather helps.

I think you've actually offered a wonderful template for writing a character who is believable. I don't personally see the point in bashfic and I hope I've never written any. One dimensional characters are boring and unrealistic anyway.

I know lots of B/A writers bash Riley and Spike, but I don't see the point when they are wonderful foils for Angel and Buffy (and other characters) and can be used in all sorts of compelling ways just the way they are.

The best stories are those that present characters that, when you read them, do things that make you go: yes, he/she would say/do/feel that. To ignore the Spike's kinder, gentler side devalues what Buffy saw in him and thereby lessens her character. Everyone loses.

Hope you get some relief for your knees.

To ignore the Spike's kinder, gentler side devalues what Buffy saw in him and thereby lessens her character. Everyone loses.

Exactly - in this case, it was a Spuffy author bashing Riley, but the point holds.

I think a key thing to do, as a viewer, is to ask yourself of each character:

What does Character X "get right" that Character Y could or should learn from, and then vice-versa. People are going to have rankings and judgements, and that's natural and fine... but one needs to be able to find something admirable and something inexcusable in each character (Characters like Warren or Caleb excepted...) if only to maintain some semblance of balance.

Is there any other point to writing a story? Isn't all about growth and change and learning things? Isn't that what makes it interesting? This is why I didn't like Riley for the longest time; he was one-dimensional to me. Too whitebread and cornfed with no facets. The vampire whore thing? That gave him facets. Granted, it was a bit extreme (and maybe it had to be to balance out his extreme "goodness"), but it gave him a balance, a yang to the yin. And without that, a character just REALLY isn't interesting.

Of course, I am preaching to the choir :)

This is why I didn't like Riley for the longest time; he was one-dimensional to me. Too whitebread and cornfed with no facets.

Heh. Riley had plenty of facets. It's just that most of them were offscreen facets, and the facets shown onscreen weren't presented in a way that people could really grip.

What's interesting to me about Riley in S4 is also what's interesting to me about Kate in AtS-1... they're both approaching the demon/human world with professional mindsets (Military and Police, respectively) which would be useful to Our Heroes except that a lot of the specifics of that professional background doesn't translate well to the newer world they face. It's fertile enough ground if those sorts of issues are your bag to focus on... but boring if (1) it's not really your bag and (2) the show doesn't do an excellent job of putting it across to help you get pinging for it...

Sorry about the knees, I have arthritis in both and it's no picnic. Why didn't your doctor drain them if you needed it? I've had to have both of mine drained a few times because I was having difficulty climbing stairs due to the swelling. Your situation doesn't sound quite as bad, but I would think if you had fluid then they would drain it.

Thanks.

This was a first visit with a GP - not my orthopedist. (HMO's y'all) They're low-level annoying, rather than truly limiting at this point. And there really isn't any visible swelling, so it's not like there's much to drain. We're still at the "give it time before we do anything invasive" stretch.

Hopefully it'll progress.

Take care of those knees, Dave.

In response to your views on bashfic, I completely agree with you. I read fic to escape, but more often than not I'm looking for ways to continue the universe or add even more depth to it than it previously had. I see blatant character bashing that is clearly the opposite of what the writers of the shows intended, and I get pulled out of the moment. I can't read it, because it's not an expansion on the verse anymore, it's something completely different.

Thanks.

I'm looking for ways to continue the universe or add even more depth to it than it previously had. I see blatant character bashing that is clearly the opposite of what the writers of the shows intended, and I get pulled out of the moment. I can't read it, because it's not an expansion on the verse anymore, it's something completely different.

Yeah. I know I look at these stories and a lot of the time, I'm thinking of them as moral/philosophical case studies - and one of the biggest problems with Bashfic besides the obvious is that I can't use them for that...

Sorry about the knees - been commisserating with my mother who got a torn minscus on the tennis court and is getting halcogn treatments next week. And I think back in 96 or 97 - I ended up with tendentitis in both knees - what solved the problem was physical therapy on my back - oddly the back caused the knee problem. I was sitting incorrectly at work and sleeping incorrectly (ie. on stomach not side or back, and on footon - very bad idea). Then the knees going out ten years back on a tread-mill which ended hopes of running. So, I emphasize and hope you feel much better soon, at least you have an excuse to avoid housecleaning or order the neat-freak tenant to do it.

Regarding Bash-fic? I think there are two major mistakes fanfic or any writer makes - and that is a) idealizing/overly romanticizing the character or b) bashing the character and making them the mustach twirling villian. I've seen incredibly good writers bash Buffy to the extent that I am pulled out of the story and rolling my eyes. Actually, I'd have to say the characters I've seen bashed the most are oddly the ones that have also been idealized the most - Angel, Buffy, Spike.
(Course I've seen every single character in the show bashed at some writers hands, one of the funniest was actually Willow at one time.
The writer, who I won't name mostly because it was too long ago and can't remember who the person was anymore just the fic, really had it in for poor Willow.

I think Whedon says something on the Wild at Heart Commentary that addresses your point succinctly - and it is an offhand comment to a question Seth Green poses. "How do you write villains and make them interesting?", "Well," states Whedon, " the thing to remember is that the villain doesn't see him or herself as a villian, they are the hero of the piece. I mean you don't go around thinking I'm a villain and twirl your moustache evilly. In your head - you are the hero, the protagonist, the other guy - the obstacle is the villian. As a writer you have to remember that. Not very interesting to me to make them all dark and horrid, that's dull. I want you to root for them a bit." (Okay that is by no means a direct quote, it's my paraphrasing of something I vaguely remember him saying...but, if you look back at the series, both series and ask yourself which antagonists (better word than villain) were the most interesting or really grabbed you - you'd discover they were the ones that weren't predictable, were multifaceted and didn't always fall completely into "evil or black and white" connotations. The one's who did, we were more or less happy to see the last of.

Sorry about the knees - been commisserating with my mother who got a torn minscus on the tennis court and is getting halcogn treatments next week. And I think back in 96 or 97 - I ended up with tendentitis in both knees - what solved the problem was physical therapy on my back - oddly the back caused the knee problem

In my case, I just tripped going down the staircase and took a Chevy Chase style pratfall. Softball season is over, and I'm actually going to sit out the Alumni League football, so that's good. Historically, most of my injuries have been secondary - me injuring myself worse while trying to play through a minor injury instead of getting prescribed rest. Because I am dumb.

the characters I've seen bashed the most are oddly the ones that have also been idealized the most - Angel, Buffy, Spike.

I think this goes hand-in-hand. Idealization begets contrarian-reaction. Beyond which, any character that is idealized to a large extent will also probably be demonized in equal part. There's a limit though - half the people who would demonize just as much as another might idealize probably just drop out of the fandom.

Beyond that, though, largely just probably because of Shipper wars, I've always seen a lot of Riley-bashing as he gets caught up in being an obstacle to hardcore fans of both B/S and B/A...

I want you to root for them a bit

Yeah - that's a good key. Ideally, if I were writing a show I'd want to have it come across where there was something of value that every character could teach each of the other characters - and equally that there'd be something of value that each character needed to learn from each other character. At least, I'd like viewers to be able to take that away without having to do contortions to think it. (And then I would create a ridiculous character that really, nobody could learn anything from, and this character would be a cautionary tale, until unexplored depths would be revealed. At which point I would license the image on lunchboxes and make oodles of money...)

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Randomness, The Doctor Is In - On How not to Bash

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