Debate - Contracts

[dlgood]

So, a recent question popped up on ATPO: Did anyone from Angel investigations sign one of those pesky Wolfram & Hart Eternity Contracts?

I'd like to think they didn't. I certainly wouldn't want the series to conclude with the services of Our Heroes owned by an evil lawfirm in perpituity.

However, I find it much harder to believe they wouldn't be.

In general, most law firms do not require employees to sign contracts. Or so I've heard. But W&H did, at least in the case of Lilah. I find it hard to believe W&H would give away the keys to the kingdom without securing such leverage.

Furthermore, given the particular work they do, I find it hard to believe W&H would present Wesley and Fred with Non-Disclosure Agreements, Intellectual Property Contracts, and Non-Competes as well. I base this on my own experience - I've never worked for a professional office that didn't require me to sign several forms of documentation that went beyond the standard W4, W2 and I9 forms. But then, I've had clearances, and have published at these places. (And one imagines Fred would have had publishing opportunities at W&H)

And I must admit that I think it's a large sacrifice of the credibility of W&H (and the SP) as a villain to consider that they wouldn't find some way to attach such a clause to the folks at AI. It's quite easy for me to believe that such a clause was included in the fine print of any number of forms that W&H would have gotten their new management to sign - and that it wasn't shown because it wasn't necessary to the story to show it.

It makes it a pretty wimpy Faustian Bargain otherwise. And of course, the SP would retain the option to call or not call upon AI members. They wouldn't be required to.

I'm willing to believe that AI didn't sign such contracts, and are free of such worries - but I do find it a bit less plausible and uncharacteristic of W&H that such is the case.

Comments

[blackcat333-99.livejournal.com]

Good question. I can't help remembering, however, that Lilah's verbal offer ("Home") included the exact phrase "no strings attached". Eve also made reference to the Fang Gang's choice of options ("Conviction"), including the right to close down the shop, but then "evil would move next door". If, however, there were some binding fine print clauses included in their W&H contracts, given the fact that the FG supposedly had the right to do whatever they wanted with the business, the Senior Partners chosing to close down the shop would constitute a deal-breaker on the SP's end. It's been noted numerous times by Gunn throughout S5 that there's always wiggle room in a contract - and so one could infer that if the FG had signed some perpetuity clause - the deal is now broken due to failure to meet terms of the contract on the SP's end.

Just my perspective from the info we have.

[ludditerobot.livejournal.com]

I've tried to put this in twice. LJ is having hickups.

Lilah and Holland were the people who came back.

They were also ex-LA Office heads.

If we saw post-"HB" Gavin, then I'd buy more that anyone other than Angel was subject to the contract.

And I doubt that pig's blood signatures really bind a vampire. Or human victim's blood signature. A vampire has no blood of his own. That's why I think he couldn't have given up his destiny in S5.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

If we saw post-"HB" Gavin, then I'd buy more that anyone other than Angel was subject to the contract.

Why? Neither Holland, nor Lilah, were the heads of LA W&H. They were heads of the "Special Projects" division and had supervisiors above them.

Furthermore, it's mentioned that the SP's had the option to bring Holland and Lilah back - not that they had to. That the SP's didn't reuse Gavin doesn't necessarily mean that they couldn't.

I doubt that pig's blood signatures really bind a vampire. Or human victim's blood signature. A vampire has no blood of his own.

I agree. That said, that a contract might not be made to apply to Angel, and others, (as Gunn says about contracts in general in S5) doesn't necessarily mean that W&H wouldn't try to stick them with one.

It could go either way for me, and I'm not sure either side could ever be proven. I'm just inclined to seriously consider the possibility that W&H would have tried to get them signed up for an eternal tour.

[ludditerobot.livejournal.com]

Lilah and Lindsay fought over being Director of Special Projects under Holland. Lilah moved up from Special Projects by decapitating Linwood in "Deep Down". They weren't in charge of Special Projects. They were in charge of everything.

And yeah, that doesn't mean they couldn't have used Gavin, but their hold seems to be gone on Cinco, doesn't it? If it was everyone, then they'd control whether he could go off with Uno through Quatro.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Lilah and Lindsay fought over being Director of Special Projects under Holland.

Incorrect. Holland was the Director of Special Projects, and they were his underlings - but Holland wasn't up top. Given that Nathan Reed had the authority to select Holland's successor, presumably he was above Holland in the chain.

And yeah, that doesn't mean they couldn't have used Gavin, but their hold seems to be gone on Cinco, doesn't it? If it was everyone, then they'd control whether he could go off with Uno through Quatro.

Lilah noted, that it cost resources (she doesn't elaborate) for the SP to reuse employees. A case could be made that the SP could re-use Cinco and chose not to. Or that he somehow evaded the contract clause. Playing Devil's Advocate, it would seem a bit of an overuse to resurrect a nebbish like Gavin or some mailguy.

[bashipforever.livejournal.com]

I so totally agree you you here on the pig's blood. It's one of the big reasons I refuse to believe that Angel signing away his Shanshu is actually valid. There are other reasons but I'll stop right here.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

This has bothered me ever since Home. To be honest, I think they did. I hate to think of any of them being this stupid but ME has had a habit of making the characters do very dumb things (more so towards the end of both series than in the beginning but that's a whole other debate).

They were standing around debating it when Angel swoops in and says they're in. Now, obviously he can't actually do that since we no longer have legalized slavery here and he can't just sign up Gunn, Wes and Fred but the ending sure as heck made it seem that way. They don't even get to put in their two cents. We knew they were all tempted. Fred was ready to walk out and bang, you're now working for W&H because Angel said so. I don't know if they ever actually addressed the issue and I was so bored with S5 I quit watching half way through so maybe I missed it.

[mshepnj.livejournal.com]

This is to replace a comment I deleted.
~*~*

I posted a follow-on to yours at ATPO, but just a few comments here...

Angel was not a standard employee, he was a recruited executive who the SPs evidently wanted very badly. I had the distinct impression that he had a strong negotiating postion and could gain concessions from the SPs. I assumed, based on Angel's comments to Lilah in Home to the effect that ... "Now I'll tell you how this deal's going to work" ... Angel could have negotiated the perpetuity clause out of his contract.

I just think Angel's soul was far too valuable to him and I really don't believe he would have taken a deal that put the rest of AI at risk even with Connor's desparate situation.

If push came to shove and it was the only way to save Connor and the innocent bystanders he had as hostages, Angel probably would have sacrificed his eternal soul for Connor, but I don't think it was necessary. The SP wanted Angel for other reasons and so expunging the perpetuity clause may not have been a deal breaker.

Gunn, OTOH, seemed to make the decision for himself after his visit to the conduit in "Home" before Angel came down to announce his "executive decision". I think he may well have agreed that what he would gain would be worth it. Afterall, he once traded his soul for a truck. And there are bits of dialog in Season 5 that imply that he was owned by the SPs.

Wesley knew about the Standard Perpetuity Clause because of his conversation with Lilah after he was shown that her contract could not be destroyed. I'm sure he would have shared that detail with Fred at the very least, before anyone signed anything.

Honestly, I don't think either Fred of Wes would sign over their eternal souls in perpetuity to the SPs. I just can't see any reason why they would consider that a fair trade for whatever they got from the SPs in return.