The Icon, the NBA finals, other stuff

[dlgood]

The Icon: It's the DD(X), the US Navy's 21st-Century Destroyer. As some folks may or may not know, I've been working in the Defense field for some time. My group at work is in the process of firming up the product line brochure and communications plan for Navy PEO Ships. I happen to really like that photo (the bigger one is beautiful) so it's my current icon of choice. (My father also happens to be a senior systems engineer on the DD(X) program for another firm.)

Cleveland Indians outfielder, Coco Crisp, may have the coolest name in sports.

NBA Finals: For anyone on this list that actually follows pro-ball, I must admit I'm pretty shocked at just how much of an ass-whipping the Pistons are laying on the Lakers. Almost as shocking as Tom Tolbert and his hideous 1970's style plaid suits - so ugly even Herb Tarleck wouldn't wear them.

Last Friday: My thanks for those who offered empathy for my complaints. As it turned out, I'm a big whiny crybaby, with nothing much to moan about. The office was empty, I got tons of work done, and there was zero traffic on the roads after all.

Ralph Wiley died last night of a heart attack at the age of 52. For those who don't follow sports, you probably won't know or care. Wiley wrote 28 cover articles for Sports Illustrated, had a column on ESPN.Com Page 2, and was the author of several books including Why Black People Tend to Shout. Wiley was funny, sharp, and witty - one of the rare sports commentators who could speak in vernacular without being lame, who could offer social commentary without seeming like a pompous blowhard, and who had genuine insight. I'll miss reading him.

Comments

Now onto diplomacy, or lack thereof lately

[bhadrasvapna.livejournal.com]

People trust us to pursue what we percieve our interests to be.

Once upon a time, our interests went beyond economics. Once upon a time, we did believe in what those sacred documents said. Once upon a time, Wilson and FDR worked very hard to foster a moral order. THOSE were our interests or at least our interests included them. Now what are our interests?

We violated Geneva for heavens sake!!!! The most sacred international treaty, we are in gross breach of. What meaning does our signature have on any treaty any more? A treaty is only as good as those signatures and if our word means nothing, what good are treaties? One of the first things Bush did in office was to dump the ABM treaty. At least he did that according to protocal.

We won't sign Kyoto, which we helped write. We won't sign the Geneva Protocals. We won't sign onto the International Criminal Court. How many members of Congress want us to pull out of NATO and the UN? We don't respect international organizations or agreements. Those are the instruments of peace. We don't respect peace.

Those were pretty massive contradictions of those "Four Freedoms" Roosevelt spoke on. Didn't cost the US must "trust". Hasn't cost the US alliances.

For the time, those weren't gross breaches. Fast forward a few decades and we are the one that are lagging when it comes to development. How many so-called civilized nations still have the death penalty? How many so-called civilized nations are trying to squeeze through a loop hole in Geneva so we can torture people? How many ACTUALLY did violate Geneva? We aren't that different from the so-called "Axis of Evil."

We were supposed to lead Bush, Sr's "New World Order." How can his son undermine this? I summed up the Reagan administration with two words "evil empire." I can sum up George, Jr with three words "go it alone." At a time when the world was more than willing to cooperate with us and that New World Order could have been strengthened, he spat repeatedly on the world community. Now we won't be the leader. We might not even be part of it.

This comment largely invalidates the bulk of your arguments about the nature of international relations

Actually it doesn't. It shows how great nations like the UK, France, Canada and all the other nations that are supporting us are. Thing is, that support is extremely limited and dwindling. Spain pulled out completely. It's only Spain you may think, but as anti-American sentiment grows, it will overcome other nations' ability to overlook our repeated insults and transgressions.

What will happen when aiding us is not in their perceived best interests (which are what? Economic? defense?). These nice quantifiable measures that the security community uses can only be for quantifiable things, like dollars and lives. How much is a life worth any way? How much is freedom worth? Is freedom of the press worth the millions of dollars certain individuals will horde when they can control the oil wells?

That is what gets me. We aren't talking about national interests. One trip to your local gas station will show you how much my interests are being affected. We are talking about the interests of a very select group of individuals that will horde their winnings.

THAT is what the international community trust us to do, support the limited interests of those select individuals. It isn't about national interest or what the people want. It isn't about allies or honoring our commitments. It isn't about wanting peace and being willing to do what is necessary to attain that. It is about dollars for a select few.

I do not believe that other nations are operating this way. They do do what is in their best interests, those interests being more than what ours is. Those interests are what ours USED to be.

Re: Now onto diplomacy, or lack thereof lately

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Once upon a time, we did believe in what those sacred documents said. Once upon a time, Wilson and FDR worked very hard to foster a moral order.

And how good a job of that did Wilson do? (Aside from when he wasn't busy propping up dicatorships and intervening in Latin America.)

The answer - not a very good job. And not just because of the lousy bad people you like to rail against. But because the manner in which Wilson conducted his policy made people less inclined to speak to him. While Wilson extolled the values of democracy and freedom abroad, he deliberately excluded from consultation and negotiation those of his constituents who disagreed with any aspects of his dogma.

And that contributed rather significantly to his inability to actually make reality those fine notions he extolled.

That's my biggest problem with you. Presuming you believe in these values, you've done a terrible job convincing me that I should work with you to put them forward. As Wilson did a terrible job convincing his audience.

But it's a democracy - and as such - Wilson couldn't compel his audience to go along with him. He needed to convince them, to motivate them, and get them excited to follow him. He couldn't control how the citizen felt. He only had the power to influence his audience to go along with him. And he failed to do so. A lot of the blame for that rests upon his shoulders.

What will happen when aiding us is not in their perceived best interests

What always happens in such cases. We can aim to coerce or persuade. And we can succeed or fail in that endeavor. Whether one roots for the US to succeed or fail is another matter. Whether one approves of the various methods the US employs to coerce or persuade is also another matter. Personally, I hope the US employs persuasive tactics - specifically, a change in both policy and diplomatic tone to a strategy that is far more inclusive of the concerns of others, and a strategy that better allows other states to align their interests with ours, and which aligns our interests with theirs.

The current administration seems disinterested in doing so to any degree. I expect they'll not be particularly successful, and that they'll lose more governments that were predisposed to be cooperative otherwise. As they lost Turkey before the war, and lost allies in Spain and India since the war.

That is what gets me. We aren't talking about national interests. One trip to your local gas station will show you how much my interests are being affected. We are talking about the interests of a very select group of individuals that will horde their winnings.

Presuming you have any respect for your fellow citizens to determine their own interests in a democratic society, then we are in fact talking about their interests too. Interests, as the public has some degree of support for the administration, you either wish to disregard or are unaware of. (Though I am puzzled at such motivation, too.)

If you think people are such dupes, or are so callow - because only a dupe or a callow individual could go along with the current administration, then there is no democratic system that will work. Our public will remain the same sort of people that got duped, or were callow. Best to go back to the Philosopher King.

Re: Now onto diplomacy, or lack thereof lately

[bhadrasvapna.livejournal.com]

That's my biggest problem with you. Presuming you believe in these values, you've done a terrible job convincing me that I should work with you to put them forward.

You're a history type person. You've read stuff, I'll assume. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you haven't read FDR's "Four Freedoms" address to Congress. If that didn't convince you of anything, there is no way I'm going to. There are plenty of mostly men that have put this stuff rather well. I don't need to convince you of anything. If you rate a person on how convincing they are, you must love used car salesmen.

This attitude that the burden is all on me, that's one of the things that is wrong with America. We don't take responsibility for what we believe. It is up to others to convince us. We just go with whatever we are told. If we are told two or more different things, we go with what sounds the best. We don't investigate things ourselves.

If you think people are such dupes, or are so callow - because only a dupe or a callow individual could go along with the current administration, then there is no democratic system that will work.

There is a system that works, one this administration has done everything in its power to prevent, one with an educated electorate and a press that actually earns the designation Fourth Estate.