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As per my own philospophical underpinnings. What informs this the most, I believe, are my own studies in Jewish theology, and an excessively thorough reading of the Federalist papers.
For a long while, there have been various debates over the concept of 'redemption' as it applies to Angel, and later by extension to other souled-vampires. Such a discussion invariably requires study of guilt, culpability, and possibilities for redemption and atonement. But for any such analysis to begin, we must first start with the question of identity.
Throughout this essay, I'll be primarily speaking in terms of Angel, as we have seen more of him than any other Vampire in the Jossverse. For the most part, I'll be speaking in generalities, as my aim is to develop an internally consistent framework whereby which other characters could be accurately evaluated. Specific, more detailed character analyses will have to wait for the "testing" phase of my theory. In the first part, I'll merely lay out the premise and groundwork of the argument. In the end, I aim to produce a theory that can plausibly fit and explain not only Angel, but Spike, Darla, Harmony and other Vampires as well, and could even be used to project characterizations for Vampire versions of the human characters. Or, it could also be turned around so that one might use a sample Vampire to better project what they were like as a human.
Case Study: Incarnations of Liam/Angelus/Angel.
Who is Angel? How are Liam, Angelus and Angel connected? And how are these connections rectifiable with the other vampires we've seen?
In the early seasons Giles will tell Buffy, and Buffy will tell her friends (and Billy Fordham) that the Vampire is not you - that it's a demon setting up shop in your house. On the other hand, both VampJesse and Angelus claim that they are "themselves" essentially seeing themselves as the same person. And in every example we've seen, the Vampire version bears significant resemblance to the human host. IMHO, the view set forth in the pilot by Giles is a simplification that makes it easier for the Slayer (or other hunters of Vampires) to do their job. But, the Vampire's assertion also bears some scrutiny as well.
The metaphysics are a little hazy, but I basically see Angel as a merger of two things: the human Liam and the Beast as shown in Pylea. The ravening creature we see in Pylea is a very clear representation of what every vampire is beneath the veneer of civility. The Beast is very much what we see out of most vampires as they first arise from the grave, devoid of thought thirsting for blood and violence. As consciousness returns to the newly risen, we see the vampire more and more for what it is - a hybrid of human and demon.
We are told within the story, that the vampire arose by design. Why? From an evolutionary perspective, the Beast or the Turok-Han might be fierce and vicious, but such mindless creatures are good for little better than chaos and destruction. These are substandard tools for Evil. Merge it with a human mind removed of conscience, and you have something truly dreadful. (Although, not *that* dreadful if you merge the beast with Harmony's mind.) As a tool of evil, the soulless Vampire then retains the best aspects of both "parents". This, IMHO, is essentially what the vampire is. It also explains why individual vampires seem to vary as much as humans do.
How does Liam inform Angelus?
We have determined then, that who Liam was influences who Angelus is. But how? Some would argue that the Beast takes what was good about a person, and twists it to evil purposes. I disagree. The Beast does not care about right or wrong. It does not prefer right or wrong. It does not even think in terms of right and wrong. The Beast only cares for its appetites.
So who is Angelus, and how does Liam inform him? Angelus then is the Beast's biological imperatives and appetites, but now informed by Liam's intellect and emotion. He is not Liam twisted to evil. Rather, he is Liam unleashed of constraint and driven by the Beast's appetites. And the Beast hungers for what Liam hungers for. His every thought, feeling, motivation, aspiration, ambition and frustrated resentment. His sinful urges, as expressed through the brutality of the beast. Angelus is Liam's sinful urges, conscious or unconscious, left unrestrained and used as fuel for the Beast. In essence, Angelus, is Liam's capacity for evil, trapped in the moment of death, and fully realized in the form of the Vampire.
This is why Angelus differs from other vampires - because Liam differs from other men. But, it's important to note this distinction - Angelus is not actually Liam. In concrete terms, Angelus is the bestial aspect of Liam. In metaphorical terms, Angelus is the representation of Liam's darkest heart. He is not Liam, but he is also not "Not Liam". He is the soulless vampire incarnation of Liam. The Beast, then, is the primary cause for Angelus' evil. Liam is the "flavoring" for the expression of that evil. None of this necessarily implies that Liam was an Evil person. This does not mean that Liam was evil, or that he was good. All humans have a capacity for both Evil and Good. Whether we are actually good or evil, is proven by how we manifest our capacities through action. Liam and Angelus do not manifest these capacities in the same way, because they have different biological imperatives, different appetites, and different moral aspects.
Quite often, our very human impulses for both Good and Evil are tied together. Liam's "good" desire to be "pure" is twinned with his "evil" impulses stemming from the frustration that he cannot attain such purity. William's "good" desire to love and be loved is twinned with his "evil" urge to possess the love interest unmindful of her actual wishes. Transformation does not then pervert anything that was pure. It merely releases what was already perverted within, because no human is pure. This is a key point - the evil the vampire does is inextricably linked to the potential for evil within the human. And that the risen vampire becomes something that the human was capable of being, but would most likely otherwise not have chosen. Beyond the actual transformation, nothing the person does in Vampire incarnation is truly forced upon them.
This One is Clean
Some will point to the "Judge" in BtVS Season Two to confirm that Angelus had no humanity in him, and that Angelus is therefore unrepresentative of the general vampire population. Or that Liam was therefore more inhuman. Before we get too caught up in this one scene as exception, let's take a closer look.
Liam showed the frustrated desire to see the world, a desire he will pursue in his incarnation as Angelus. This is not inherently a "good" or "evil" urge, but it is consistent to the character. But more aptly, does Angelus not display jealousy and affection for Darla and Drusilla, just as the Judge asserted Spike and Dru shared jealousy and affection? These are all examples of human desire that carried over, flavoring the Beast that was Angelus.
So, IMHO, the Judge's comment that Angelus has no humanity within him is inconsistent with Angelus as portrayed. I would not take it as entirely accurate. Rather, it serves to confirm to the viewing audience that Angelus is just more bad-ass than the run-of-the-mill vampire. More noteworthy, it may well be that Liam's darkest impulse (the eradication of his own humanity) and the Beast's dark appetites for destruction were in complete harmony. Whereas William's darkest impulse (possession of a love object) is in conflict with the Beast's appetite to destroy. And that it is the harmony between Beast and Humanity which the renders Angelus immune to the Judge.
Significance of the Moment of Death
This is critical. The Beast is informed by the human host at the moment of death, and will continue to be eternally informed by those pathologies and priorities. Though it might either act to fulfill these priorities or battle against them, it cannot escape the pathologies because the fundamental human component is missing. The Vampire is a Dead Thing and cannot grow.
However, one notes that Angelus of S2 BtVS is distinctly different in motive and demeanor from the Angelus of the flashbacks, and the Angelus of S4 AtS. This is not because Angelus grew - but rather because Liam has grown and changed. At the time of soul-loss, the incarnations of Liam/Angel exhibit different pathologies, and these different pathologies are what drive the Beast to be different. Such a theory appears substantiated by noting how the Darla of Flashbacks differs from the VampDarla following "The Trial".
By way of example, the Buffy Summers of S6 has a far deeper set of frustrated aspirations and resentments than the Buffy Summers of S2. Her pathologies and capacity for evil would therefore be far different. Thus, in Alternate Universes, one can project that a VampBuffy turned in S6 would be a far different creature, and likely far more angry and vile, than a Buffy Summers turned in S2.
Now if that's Angelus, then who is Angel?
With the soul, Angel is now more than Angelus was. But everything that was Angelus is still contained within him. In essence, one could see the intellect of Angelus as a fractured aspect of Liam. The soul returns what was missing. The conscience. The capacity for higher moral action, previously disregarded as irrelevant to the beast. And by higher moral action, I do mean both in terms of capacity for both Evil and Good. Angelus does not expand any upon the template for cruelty already established by the Beat. He is inherently amoral - and can only refine it using the tools presented within Liam, such as Liam's intellectual knowledge of morality. Angel, with soul, is capable of inherent morality. For good or for ill, just like any other souled being.
Angel is Liam once again rendered whole. However, he is now more than just Liam. He regains all of Liam's moral awareness, but he is still the Beast. He drinks blood. He burns in the sunlight. He has the biological imperatives and appetites of the Beast, yet a moral awareness that rejects his own biology as profane. Connor's accusation, that "Angel" is a costume "Angelus" is forced to wear is almost correct. Rather "Liam" is a costume the Beast wears. Without a conscience, we call him Angelus, and he is vile. With a soul, we call him "Angel" and he becomes the sort of creature that can successfully respond to reason and love and attempt to overcome the limitations of the Beast.
Note the use of the word "successfully". Others will attempt to reach the soulless vampire through reason and love. We will see examples of soulless vampires attempt to overcome the limitations of the Beast. (Harmony and Soulless Spike) Over the long-term, however, these attempts have been shown to fail.
Why does Angel feel guilty for the actions of Angelus?
As noted, Angel is Liam rendered whole, but he is also still the beast. Between the Beast's appetites and Liam's capacity for Evil, everything that was Angelus is still contained within him. Because Angel realizes this, and because he cares, he feels guilt. Maybe he shouldn't. Or maybe he should feel less guilt. But he does.
This is essentially rooted in his humanity. What makes Angelus different from every other vampire, is Liam. Just as what makes Vampire Darla different from other Vampires was Human Darla. And that is why Angel feels personal responsibility.
Think of the metaphor. We are all human and flawed. Yet my acts of wickedness differ from yours, because I differ from you. I cannot, in good conscience, merely dismiss my prior bad acts because I was human, and therefore flawed. These acts were specific to me, I own them, and therefore must hold myself accountable for them if I care at all about becoming and remaining a better person than I was before. As I am human and flawed, and will continue to sin despite my best efforts. As I long as I live, cannot be *not human* - therefore this will a continual and never-ending process. It is simply part and parcel of the human condition.
And that's why Angel is always so crushed and affected by guilt over the deeds of Angelus. Yes he was a demon and therefore predisposed to evil deeds. But those deeds are specific and do belong to him. To Liam. And Angel feels this guilt, because, with his soul and moral awareness, he genuinely cares about becoming a better person than he once was. Of course, 'flavor' of Angelus' cruelty is rooted in Liam's darker traits, then so must Angel's better nature also be rooted within (and be reflective of) Liam's better nature. It is that better part of Liam's nature shining through when Angel acts upon his desire to become and remain a better man then he previously showed himself to be.
Should Angel feel guilty?
Some will say no. I say yes. He contains within himself everything that produced the evil acts of Angelus. Which, therefore also means that he contains within himself, the capacity to produce such acts again. Guilt, if deal with properly, is the fuel he will use to reform himself such that he will not produce or repeat such evils again. He can do this in two ways. First, he can seek ways to control the instincts of the Beast. Secondly, he can seek ways to control or limit his human capacity for evil - primarily stemming from the pathologies of the man than was Liam and the man that Angel now is. He can do so by stifling and repressing these capacities, or by improving and developing himself in ways that remove those capacities. Shanshu, the eradication of his Beastly biology and appetites, is merely the most obvious means to address the first part. There is still human weakness to deal with.
What does this tell us about Redemption and Atonement?
Redemption and atonement are two different things. For Angelus, redemption is a tautological impossibility. He is the Beast and he sees nothing objectionable in that. Forever, he may quest to refine himself, to be the best Beast he can be, but that is all. Even for Spike, there can be no redemption. Under this conceptual framework (which one is free to debate) Spike's quest to gain the soul is not driven by a desire to "be good" or to transcend the Beast. Rather, it is driven by an inner conflict - namely, he cannot rectify the Beast's appetites with William's darkest urges. In essence, due to a strange confluence of circumstances, the twin pathologies driving all soulless vampires happen to be at war within Spike. In getting the soul, he merely chooses to continue his effort to emphasize one aspect of his Vampire nature over the other by copying a method that he believes worked for Angel. He does not see his nature as Beast as profane in and of itself, but rather an impediment in his desire to obtain that which he craves. He still lacks understanding of what the soul implies, as he will later reveal to Buffy. Had he such a moral capacity, he would never have needed to gain a soul, or any missing piece in the first place. This is not redemption.
For souled Angel, redemption is possible. Not likely, but conceptually possible. Not simply because he sees his nature as the Beast as something that does not work to satisfy the cravings of Liam, but because he sees his nature of the Beast as profane and in need of redemption, in and of itself. Angel longs for is to transcend his nature as Beast. He can fight that nature, but he cannot overcome it. The cross still burns. Redemption, then, lies in becoming human and in no longer being the Beast. This parallels the religious concepts of Redemption in Christian theology.
That doesn't mean he necessarily "needs it" or should want it in an objective sense. But it is something Angel desires and believes he needs, for good of for ill. The problem for Angel, is that Redemption is not something one can earn. In terms of theology, Redemption can only be granted by an external source. It is the province of God (TPTB or what have you) This is problematic, because redemption is beyond his control. If he has faith, the hope for Redemption is a shining beacon to the soul. If he does not, it is a source of frustration, which is very dangerous as frustration feeds the Beast and leads into temptation to do evil.
Atonement, on the other hand, is something he can control. He might not be able to correct for every sin, but Atonement is about something a bit more sophisticated than clearing off a scorecard. Atonement, is about how one conducts one's life. And in that regard, Angel can atone for the sins of Liam and of Angelus. He can atone for Liam by living up to all of Liam's wasted promise and by getting his act together and being the righteous man he aspires to. He can atone for Angelus by combating the evils Angelus represented, and by creating a legacy of good deeds and heroism. That is atonement. It is a difficult process, but it is achievable. It can be earned. It is within our grasp if we truly and diligently seek it.
Shanshu and Redemption revisited?
In addition to the literal implications (he will no longer have the biological imperatives and appetites of the Beast) the Shanshu has implications on a metaphorical level. Angel is not human. He is a profane and an accursed being. He must subsist on lifeblood. He is burned by the sun. If man, in a metaphorical sense, is created within God's image, then it is honorable for man to strive to become better and greater. In short, closer to God. But how can Angel connect with this aspect of his own humanity when he is rejected by the symbols of God.
Furthermore, it is human nature to seek out our happiness and the happiness of those we care about. But due to the nature of his curse, Angel cannot seek happiness without causing harm to those he loves, and also to those who love him, for no other reason than that they have the misfortune to care for and be cared about by him. This is why Redemption in the form of Shanshu would have particular significance for Angel.
Ultimately, each character must be judged and evaluated based upon the the incarnation they exist within. Ultimately, I do hold humanity is the highest incarnation of all three, because of Vampire, Souled Vampire, and Human - only the human is possessed of inherent moral capacity and also free of the Beast. Humanity, of course is still flawed - if we were not flawed, we would all be angels. But it is very human and very commendable to aspire to the better angel of our nature. And this is very much a point of the Hero's journey.
So, can this be ported to other characters? Other Vampires?
It requires a more specific and detailed analysis, but I do think this would lay out a template whereby other Vampire characters and their human hosts can be analyzed. This would require a fuller analysis of the relevant personalities than I have prepared at this point - beginning with a more detailed analysis of how Angel(us) might fit this mold. Feel free to go to work and test the theory.. I may yet post a more detailed case at a later time.
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*Links to your LJ*
*Wants to eat your brain*
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This is a key point - the evil the vampire does is inextricably linked to the potential for evil within the human. And that the risen vampire becomes something that the human was capable of being, but would most likely otherwise not have chosen.
Exactly :)
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I'm glad you took the time out to read it.
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That was outstanding. I hope you do expand upon this, because it was an exceptional analysis and a great read. I found it to be an accurate description of Angel's character and nature and I look forward to seeing you apply it to other characters.
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Will spam my friends list with this!
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I believe I read somewhere, or maybe it's in one of the dvd commentaries, that the scene with the Judge was done solely -- no pun -- to show the viewers that this was not Angel and that there was no hope of saving him. Much like the way that Angelus fed off the woman in the alley, a deliberate act to distance the characters.
Personally, every time I see that scene I have to yell the screen, "yeah and hate and anger aren't human emotions?". Which speaks volumes for my state of mind, I suppose.
I found myself agreeing with the majority of this wonderful essay/thesis/theory whatever you want to label it. Must admit that a few more readings are needed, I don't usually exercise my brain this much in one sitting. *grin* But I do love the theory of a human/demon hybrid and that the Angelbeast is what Angelus is.
Very good stuff here and I will have to link to it as well, smart stuff should be spread around.
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It was. But, I don't want to simply write it off as a Meta-comment, because everything that appears on the screen ought be treated as having significance inside the story. Or the story won't work. I rectified this by speaking in terms of the separate drives and impulses of Liam and the Beast. Namely that, by happenstance, in that moment the drives of Liam and the Beast are very much in accord. Whereas, the Angelus who shows up to murder his father, reveals a distinct discord between the two.
In any case, feel free to rethink, poke and prod. I don't mind folks shooting holes where holes need to be shot.
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And I love that you pointed out that redemption and atonement are not the same thing. Very few people understand that. (And I think Spike wants redemption but has almost no interest in atonement, but that's for a different post)
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Glad you liked.
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I'm quite taken with the fanwank that part of this is related to a catholic upbrininging and belief in original sin and redemption through 'good works'. As in, is he in some way predisposed to feel guilty in general?
Of course, 'flavor' of Angelus' cruelty is rooted in Liam's darker traits, then so must Angel's better nature also be rooted within (and be reflective of) Liam's better nature. It is that better part of Liam's nature shining through when Angel acts upon his desire to become and remain a better man then he previously showed himself to be.
I'm unsure meself how far Angel actually is Liam anymore. Hmm... *ponders*
Should Angel feel guilty?
Some will say no. I say yes. He contains within himself everything that produced the evil acts of Angelus. Which, therefore also means that he contains within himself, the capacity to produce such acts again. Guilt, if deal with properly, is the fuel he will use to reform himself such that he will not produce or repeat such evils again.
It's in him, but I'm not convinced he should feel bad for potential crimes, given that - for me at least - Angel isn't responsible for what Angelus did. Catholicesque guilt about their potential ability to harm others, but... and he's done a hell of a lot more good than most people.
Secondly, he can seek ways to control or limit his human capacity for evil - primarily stemming from the pathologies of the man than was Liam and the man that Angel now is.
And how human is Angel? (Really, I ain't sure anymore...)
Shanshu, the eradication of his Beastly biology and appetites, is merely the most obvious means to address the first part. There is still human weakness to deal with.
I'm beginning to want him not to get the shanshu, it's just such an easy way out...
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I think that's quite possible. To me, the way Angel feels his guilt reflects something quite serious about who Liam was, and how Liam was raised. Just as the fact that Spike does not feel the same way, would say quite a bit about how William was raised. Personally, I do think it reflects a Catholic upbringing.
I'm unsure meself how far Angel actually is Liam anymore.
IMHO, he is Liam, and he is not. I am not the same person I was twenty years ago, because of the experiences I have gone through. And yet I am still that person. I view Angel in the same way. He's 100+ years older, and a different man now, but he's still Liam.
and he's done a hell of a lot more good than most people
True. This is where the Jewish & Catholic conception of guilt come in to play. The point of guilt and contrition particularly in Jewish theology, is to remind of past and potential sins but also to serve to motivate and instruct us in the effort to improve the self and be a better person in the future. To the weak and unhealthy guilt can drag us down, as it often has with Angel. But to the healthier and stronger, viewed properly guilt can be a very positive force.
As to the Shanshu. I don't necessarily care for whether he actually gets it in the end or not. What I care about, is that the character strive for the very positive things in terms of self-improvement that the Shanshu represents. The Shanshu itself, is a very important detail, but still just a detail.
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Faith and Hope
Re: Faith and Hope
Re: Faith and Hope
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Humanity in a nutshell
Here is how I form a human. We have the passions at our core. These are defined by the Catechism (all quotes come from the Catechism) as "emotions or movements of the sensitive appetite that incline us to act or not act in regard to something felt or imagined to be good or evil...[they] are natural components of the human psyche; they form the passageway and ensure the connection between the life of the senses and the life of the mind...In themselves passions are neither good nor evil. They are morally qualified only to the extent they effectively engage reason and will...Strong feelings are not decisive for the morality or the holiness of persons; they are simply the inexhaustible reservoir of images and affections in which the moral life is expressed...Emotions and feelings can be taken up into the virtues or perverted by the vices."
So we start with the passions. All complex creatures have the passions. This is not our humanity. Some call it our humanity, saying we are both good and evil, but it isn't the passions that make us human. If this was the case, then all vampires would retain their humanity and all of them would have been crispy critters. If this was the case, the only thing separating Ben and Glory would be power. When the wall between them weakens, she wouldn't feel anything different. If this was the case, the demons we see on Angel, like Lorne wouldn't feel anything. We know this isn't the case, so the passions aren't what makes us human.
The human soul is what makes us human. Humanity is what the soul does. The passions go through the virtues and the vices. The human conscience tries to direct the passions through the virtues. This is what the Catechism refers to as "Man's Vocation" and what makes us human. Gaudium et spes says it best:
Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment.... For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God.... His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.
The conscience makes us feel good when we are good and bad when we are bad. The demon soul does the reverse and tries to direct the passions through the vices. It makes the demon feel good when they are bad and bad when they are good. The soul isn't the only thing doing the directing. Human are pretty complicated. So are the vampires we inform. The human psyche can disconnect from the conscience and then the conscience cannot easily direct the passions through the virtues. We saw Willow's soul disconnected by Dark Magick. It took Giles dosing her to reconnect it enough so that Xander could reach her. Lilah and Lindsey have both disconnected from their conscience for psychological reasons. Faith disconnected, but her soul reasserted itself and wanted Angel to kill her. That is the human side of the equation. Spike is a demon and has a demon soul. He has disconnected from this in his feelings for Buffy. His conscience reasserted itself in "Seeing Red."
[continued]
A really big nutshell
Humanity is what directs the passions through the virtues. The soul can do this, but so can other things, like being love's bitch or greed. It isn't as strong or pure a connection. There still is the soul trying to direct things. This is why without a soul, a creature can have humanity, but probably doesn't. The catechism defines the human virtues as "firm attitudes, stable dispositions, habitual perfections of intellect and will that govern our actions, order our passions and guide our conduct according to reason and faith." Dalton liked to read. That would perfect his intellect and thus give him humanity. Spike and Drusilla's affection and jealousy would also direct the passions in a way that gave them humanity. Angel, newly desouled, would have no such connection and would have to develop that. The Master who despised humans more than any vampire would probably come up as having humanity. His relationship with the other vampires demonstrated humanity and caused him to direct the passions a certain way when it came to them.
That is the big differences between the human soul and the sort of directing a false conscience, like love's bitch, can do. The human soul isn't directed at just a specific object. The vamp humanity is just toward a particular creature, such as Buffy or Drusilla in the case of Spike or the Order of Aurelius in the case of the Master. Some may say this directed feelings is "love" and others may qualify it since it isn't broader and is based on something less altruistic.
Joss has called the soul "a guiding star." A star can be bright or dim. The conscience has to be educated and the virtues cultivated. "They are the fruit and seed of morally good acts." This makes the star brighter. The more good Angel does, the more he is inclined to do good. Liam didn't cultivate his. He was "blinded through the habit of committing sin." Redemption and wiping the slate clean can be about Divine judgment or it can be about these habits that incline us to act a certain way. The clean slate Spike wants is to avoid Hell. The clean slate Angel wants is to not want to do evil any more. Angel's judgment of himself comes from this inclination of his.
Evil tried to convince him that this inclination IS human. Then what separates the demons from the humans? What is so special about our human soul? Why does our human soul make redemption possible? Why is redemption impossible without it?
(more on redemption)
Redemption in a nutshell
Angelus said the human condition was about suffering and dying. Why would Angel want that? No wonder he doesn't see Shanshu as a reward. He knows the father killed the son. He also knows that it happened in an unexpected way. He believes in Shanshu. He just doesn't believe it offers hope. Thing is that isn't the human condition. The human condition is to live our divine vocation. Man may be wounded by sin and suffer because of this, but mercy can lead to salvation.
We've talked about atonement and redemption. Another term is justification. It "Detaches man from sin...and purifies his heart of sin." Spike is looking for this for the promise of heaven. He wants his heart to weigh lighter than a feather. Angel wants it because "it frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals." I look forward to seeing what heals Angel.
Angel has two souls, a demon soul and a human soul. This demon soul makes him still want to do bad things. He’s an alcoholic that still wants a drink. That doesn’t go away until the demon soul does. He can be strong enough to overcome this and he can disconnect from it, like Willow did from her human soul, but Angelus is right. He lives just beneath the surface and Angel knows it. He longs to be freed of this. That is what being human means to him.
The philosophical yummies come in when we ask is this possible. Some don’t want him to Shanshu because they agree with what Holland said in “Reprise.” Evil is a necessary evil. Does Joss and the show agree with this. Evil isn’t something that can easily be overcome, but there is a sense of hope to the show that it can be with a lot of work. If Buffy and Willow can change the world and restore the natural order the Patriarchy disrupted, why couldn’t the evil in Angel be overcome in some way? Not as a reward, but through hard work he could break the bonds that enslave him. The prophecy says that Angel will Shanshu once he does what he is supposed to. Wesley interpreted that to be a reward. What if it is just a natural consequence of it? What if his human soul kills his demon soul? Then the PTBs so that Angel doesn’t just die regenerate him. That isn’t a reward then.
Just an idea.
Re: Redemption in a nutshell
This is a remarkably eloquent statement of sentiments that I find quite compelling. Will have to engage in more thought on the matter.
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Nitpick: I think you mean "reconciliation/reconcile" where you use "rectification/rectify."
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I'm glad you enjoyed.
Will have to check the dictionary on your nitpick. You are probably right. Otherwise, feel free to pick away.
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Redemption and atonement are two different things.
So simple and yet so powerfully true. When I think of Angel, it is always in terms of making amends, to atone for his past. It's funny, the redemption aspect often confuses the matter for me. It's like they need a destination, any destination, for Angel's journey. Yet Angel's story is so not about his final destination, it is the mountains and valleys he must cross to get there - wherever 'there' ends up being!
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When I think about atonement, it's not just about specific deeds, but rather in terms of atonement for being the person who would commit such bad deeds. The future, then, becomes a big key to atoning for the past, is self-improvement so that you can build a better future. It's also a source of hope amidst the realization that we can't erase our past misdeeds.
Redemption, I do see as an important issue , because the only way he can really ever escape "Angelus" is to not be a vampire. So it's probably always going to be a part of the story. But, I think atonement is really the better theme to fix upon because it's a bit more universal, and something we can all use in our daily lives.
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I'm just curious on where you stand on the insanity plea. I only ask because if Angel bears responsibility for the deeds of Angelus, how does that play out with a muliple personality type situation... where CrazyBob murders people, while AccountantBob has no idea?
Or are you saying he should feel responsible even though he isn't responsible as the situation was literally outside his control?
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Redemption and atonement are two different things. For Angelus, redemption is a tautological impossibility. He is the Beast and he sees nothing objectionable in that. Forever, he may quest to refine himself, to be the best Beast he can be, but that is all. Even for Spike, there can be no redemption.
I’m not sure if Spike is unredeemable. As you say, redemption is not something you do for yourself, it is something that is done for you. In christian tradition, it is simply by accepting Jesus you are redeemed; There are no hoops to jump through. It’s really pretty simple: Ask and ye shall receive.
(Side note: For me this raises the question of who exactly is doing the redeeming? On AtS the most obvious answer is TPTB, but on BtVS they have never really (that I remember) played a role and it’s Buffy herself that is often held up as the christ-like figure there.)
So how does this play out with Angel and Spike?
I think there’s a case to be made that Spike receiving his soul was him receiving redeemption. While I mostly agree with your reasoning as to why Spike searched for his soul, I also think a large part of it was motivated by him wanting Buffy’s forgiveness. However I still think that fits in with your concept of his two natures (the beast and William) being at war as his main motivation. I’m just not sure any of that really matters in terms of redemption. Simply by asking to have his soul restored Spike is redeemed. There is nothing else he needs to do in order for redemption to happen because the price has already been paid. If you go with the Buffy-as-christ model (which I will agree is shaky), he asked for her forgiveness and it was received.
Angel is another story. Simply having a soul is not enough for redemption in Angel’s case because rather than seeking it out he had to be cursed with it. Redemption can only be achieved for Angel by becoming human. While TPTB have proven themselves to be a little more capricous than people typically like to think the christian god is, maybe redemption for Angel is as simple as asking for it, which I don’t think he has ever really done.
I wrote a long bit about further differences between Spike and Angel’s search for redemption and attitudes towards atonement, but it got way off-topic so I’m going to move it to my lj rather than clutter up yours. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/nikitasan/).
Thanks for sparking such a great discussion.
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There is a case. I just disagree.
Because Spike does not seek redemption for his sins, or his evil. In seeking the soul, he only seeks the girl and is unconcerned with his 120+ years of mayhem, murder and brutality. To say he seeks and gains redemption, is to argue that he only does so in part. Spike has only asked to have one small aspect of his sinfulness wiped away, and as his behavior in S7 will attest - the Beast still exists within him. As does William's own sinful nature. Redemption generally implies wiping the slate clean, and Spike has clearly not been cleansed.
Spike's behavior with soul, is not that of a man redeemed - though it is now that of a man capable of redemption. The Beast still exists within him, and he still acts upon it's appetites. William's sinfulness still exists within him, and he acts upon William's appetites as well. And he's not truly aware of any of this until after he has the soul.
It may look like and resemble Redemption. But Spike receiving the soul is no more Redemption than the Miracle Snow is for Angel. That Spike requested a soul whereas Angelus did not is of far lesser consequence. neither asked to be redeemed. And as such, ask and you will receive, even if one held to it as a concept, does not apply.
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But, wow. They're good thoughts and I think you've managed to focus in on many of the points that have long been debated in terms of Angel's character.
And you know I'm gonna ask if I can post this at Octaves. Pretty please.
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Holy Moly...
*sigh* Great. Now I'm gonna be stuck with serious thoughts all day. :P
*goes off to ponder*
Re: Holy Moly...
As I'd said before, feel free to add or comment or ask questions or whatever.
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But I do think that if one grants the premises, it holds as a relatively decent metric for analysis. In any case, I'm glad you found it worth reading.
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Dude.
-Rhi
Re: Dude.
ooooooh, pretty words!
--Sheri from ATPO.
Re: ooooooh, pretty words!
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The last couple of months I've been thinking more and more about such things (probably due to the fact that I'm taking a philosophy course) and was so confused, but you have helped an enormous amount in helping me to make sense of it all.
I am SO saving this.
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No worries. It's supposed to hold up... If you get interested, you can check out